I can feel for you're plight. For years the crossbow issue has been a battle in KY. went to a meeting where they had allready posted the season with crossbow all during archery season. Due to internet forums and lots of communication from UBK,the room was full of pissed off bowhunters. They went ahead and passed it in spite of our protests. UBK than went after them, and later they revised it. Crossbow got extended, but we kept sept, and January as archery only. Had UBK not done what they did it would have all been lost. UBK also was the reason our archery opens early sept-mid january.They got us into some state park resort archery only quota hunts, and Now they are lobbying for a archery only bear season.So through the years they have done some good. I would like to see KTBA participate in these meetings as well. This is not out of the question, it just takes some organization and willing participants. ITBA has the potential as well. Its not impossible to believe you can create more opportunity for you're sport by showing up at a meeting, in force, and saying "We have X number of members, we vote, and this is what we want" .It is politics. Its easier to create new opportunities for you're constituents (ie a new season exclusive to bowhunters) than it is to take opportunities from others (ie shorten gun season)
Last month I was approached by Don Bailey of UBK and asked to fill a vacant position in our district for UBK. I could not turn him down, even though I am spread pretty thin now. I just hope I can be of some service with my work schedule.
Yep, uphill battle for sure, but the only way battles are won is to position the troops to outnumber the opponents on the field in a certain spot,and fight like hell, even if the opponent has you outnumbered overall.
Good luck.

Can we hire the UBK to represent us? Please?

randy grider wrote:

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LOL, you need a UBI,Hell John, you're gainfully unemployed now with all kinda free time, START ONE !

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 Not me! I just got my pictures taken down at the post office!

 

Seriously, we don't have enough public hunting in Indiana to make it happen. If you look on a map of Hoosier National forrest, what you don't see is the huge number of houses and farms in it. We really only have one "Wilderness" area--Deam--and it wouldn't make a wart on Kentucky's wild land. Too many people, and too little land access. I really shouldn't bitch too much. I lived through the good times here.......however, we had NO DEER then. None. and no deer season.

Yeah, Randy thanks and Jose' your efforts are appreciated.

The Bowhunter safety class is not very expensive to take and its a very good course, never know you may learn something. The course teaches Archery History, why a cut on contact broadhead is better than a chisel point. How to proselyte adjust and wear a harness, tree stand safety among other things archery/bowhunting related. Its 20 bucks well spent and the money is for the materials. The instructors are volunteers.
As for the new xgun season, at least they have their own tags and can be regulated depending on their harvest numbers, instead of being mixed in and incorporated with us. The real tragedy would be if our bow seasons were shortened because of high harvest numbers due to xbowd being in our season.
Personally, I think Indiana needs a primative season or at least Alas designated for primative weapons only. Is there that much difference between a crossbow and some of the new generation compounds? Both weapons will shoot 60+ yards on a flat trajectory. Both are shot by pulling a trigger. Only difference I can think of is a crossbow is 100% letoff while a compound is 90% letoff

Randy, we have the IBA. It used to be pretty strong and they are what kept crossguns out for years. But now there aint much left of the IBA..

Well Gentlemen, I almost never get involved in this type of discussion because everyone is so stuck in their own opinions that it's a waste of my time.  To start off this whole crossbow thing was brought on by apathy, yours!  The F&W division holds several public hearings before every change to the regulations.  They have to, it's the law.  These days an individual doesn't even have to leave the comfort of his own home to participate if he doesn't want to, he/she can just e-mail their opinions/comments in and they are tallied with all the others.  How many of you did either of these.  I did.  I didn't want crossbows in the regular season.  I was fine with them only as a tool for handicapped hunters who still wanted to enjoy the sport we all love.  How many of you sent an e-mail or attended one of the public meetings to show your support of the first proposed changes.  What were those?  Shorten both gun and ML season to 9 days each.  Lengthen the bow season to what it is now and leave the crossbow season as it was, in the late archery season only.  Chad Stewart, Indiana's deer biologist, spent 3 years researching other state's seasons that have more effective control of their deer herd than Indiana does.  All of those states had one thing in common, a much shorter gun season to stop hunters from "shopping" for the deer they wanted.  If they wanted one, they better shoot it during one of the two weekends or they are out of luck.  What happened to that proposal, you ask.  Not enough of you, or like minded people, felt it was important enough to take the time to show up to one of the meetings or even write an e-mail offering their opinions.  Gene Hopkins and the IBA did as much as they could, but a formal letter from organizations such as the ITBA to not only the division of fish and wildlife, but the state legislators that you elected to represent you could have passed that proposal.  But instead, the gun hunters called their legislators and Chad was told by the powers to be that he could do whatever he wanted with the deer seasons, but he couldn't touch the gun seasons.  This tied his hands and as you can imagine frustrated him to no end.  He had done the research, he knew what would work to reduce the herd numbers, and he was told he couldn't do it.  Therefore, proposal 2 came out which is what we have now as law.  Again, Gene Hopkins and the IBA tried to keep the crossbows at bay by offering a concession to hunters over 65, allowing them to hunt with a crossbow at an age when we will all find it harder to pull the bows of our youth back, but the hunger to hunt does not fade.  The glitch there was that these concessions came too late, the proposal package has to be passed or defeated as it was written.  Any change starts the whole public input phase over again and another year passes before a new proposal can be passed.

So there it is in a nutshell for you.  Some of you need to look no farther than your own mirror to find whose to blame for the new changes.  This country was founded on the principle of the minority has to live with what the majority wants.  Unfortunately, too much of the decisions made in this country today are made from the opposite philosophy, the minorities force their wants on the majority.  These rules were passed because more hunters were for them than against, it is that simple.  It's very interesting to me that the one person on this thread that actually speaks with facts behind his words is from KY.  He understands our process more than the guys from IN do on this forum.

I'd like to clear up some of the total fiction that has been spouted out in this thread.  For those of you that think the DNR makes these changes to raise more dollars need to take another look at the harvest statistics.  A huge number of the deer harvested are taken by landowners and lifetime license holders.  They are all exempt from any new license the state has to develop to allow these other seasons/weapons.  The new rules even have a new bundle license that includes one buck tag and two antlerless that are good through all seasons, this will save you multiple season hunters money.  Those of you who choose to use only one weapon, that is your choice, you will still pay the same amount.

Someone stated that the hunter orange law has nothing to do with safety, it's just another hoop for hunters to jump through.  Hogwash!!!  Since the hunter orange laws have been passed the number of hunting incidents that involve one hunter shooting another has dropped over 75%.  The only season that hasn't seen a change, spring turkey.  Hummm, wonder why.

Another member wrote that the crossbow season was just a guise to open the sport to more people.  Well, I won't chew my cabbage twice, I addressed this up above.  He also stated that his DNR friends told him that all centerfire rifle cartridges are coming soon.  Not what Chad Stewart says.  Yes, there are wildcat cartridges being developed to fall into Indiana's reg's. that have much more range than intended.  I'm not saying that there will never be an all high-powered rifle season in Indiana, but the reason we have never had one is not how flat Indiana is, it is the number of hunters in the woods on opening weekend of the gun season and the urban hunting environment many hunters hunt in.  As for the use of spotlights for depredation tags.  Totally false.  One time, back in the mid- 90's, a now retired biologist allowed a vegetable farmer in Jefferson County to do it.  As soon as the law enforcement division found out that provision was revoked and it has never been used since.  It is too dangerous to allow spotlighting as the hunter can not see what is beyong the light beam where his high-powered rifle bullet may hit.  The same reason it is illegal anytime.  I share your concerns with the future of hunting for our kids and grandkids.  My daughter loves to hunt and fish.  The only way to assure that hunting is still around for them is to become active and draft as many people as needed to help preserve the sport we love through legislation.

One writer spoke of days when he saw 10-25 deer in a field.  Now he's happy to see 5.  How many deer is enough.  Do you want to hunt a deer, or do you want a guarantee you'll kill one.  Sounds like we are more interested in the kill than the hunt.  Maybe we should rethink why we hunt.  Is it all about the kill?  If so, then join the group that prostitutes our great sport of hunting on the tv with all those trophy or nothing shows.  They make me sick.  We have forgotten why we hunt, I don't care if someone uses a .44 magnum rifle on the farm next to me.  I'm still going to use my flintlock if I need meat and the bow season wasn't so good to me.  Its being out there, enjoying the outdoors.  One more point I'd like to make on this issue.  Which would you rather see in that field of corn if you were the farmer and corn is selling over $8.00/bushel, 25 deer or 5 deer?  Like it or not, the farmer owns the land and is trying to make a living off of it while feeding you.  Forgive him if he gets a little pissed off watching 20 deer ruin two acres every evening.  Most farmers I know that don't allow hunting do so because of a bad experience with hunters.  They just finally get fed up with the slob hunters and it's easier for them to say no to everyone.  For those that lease, most do so to put the responsiblilty of controlling hunting on their land in someone else's hands so they don't have to worry about it.

And as far as a hunter being allowed to kill over 400 deer/year in Indiana.  Give me a break.  I go through the check station logs every year.  Very few hunter kill more than two with the majority killing only one.

My last point is to the mental midget who stated that if he wants to kill a deer in July, he will do so.  Why does he even care about the seasons if he is going to steal from all of us anyway.  He might be hard to catch, but the easiest poachers to catch are the one's that can't keep their mouths shut.  No one is impossible to catch, especially after a warden has their name.

I know I stepped on some toes, ruffled some feathers, down right pissed some people off, but I have had enough of the crying towels and woe be to me comments.  Not everyone shares our love of traditional archery, but we have to share the woods with other types of hunters.  So we might as well work with them and make sure our opinions are heard.  Because we don't outnumber many hunting groups and what's happens if they decide they don't want to share the woods with us anymore?

This is more words than I've spoke since I've known you!  Don't take me wrong, I like all you guys and wish I could make more shoots and spend time with you.  Still hope to make at least one and pay my dues, but my daughter is a basketball phenom and I am on the road with her and the wife whenever I am not working.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I just like facts better.  Shoot straight, but if you can't shoot straight, shoot often!

Andy

Now you are just being ridiculous! But it is your choice to not wear it. It's just a $20 fine, like a seatbelt violation, or possibly your life if a gun hunter doesn't see you properly.

SPARK,GAS,FIRE,squirt-squirt,more fire. Been a gooden so far.As far as doing ones part[ have done it ] my opinion on crossbows was heard and ignored,my view on doe harvest heard and ignored,my view on 1 buck rule heard and ignored.Have done my part as well as i could,i understand im only one voice other voices need to be heard[AGREED] Now as far as harvest numbers go i said id rather go back to the rules of the early to mid 80s,but i realize thats the past,with the quotas of all counties in the state one COULD harvest 350 to 400 deer[given time, energy,$, and drive] not saying they could actually achieve that lofty goal.Thats whats available.I hunt each season,archery,firearm,muzzeloader,late archery,and participate in military refuge hunts,could have easily taken over 15 deer a year in the past,but i hunt,ive passed on more shots than have actually taken,im content with watching them most of the time, even have great film footage of alot of my hunts where not a single shot fired,just filmed the deer[all around and under my stand] all on STATE grounds.Been deer hunting since i was 8 yrs old,i make time for deer hunting.Now as far as hunters orange during the firearms season to the 6th of Jan.[SAFETY FIRST] it has saved alot of lives[ no doubt at all].if the bird spooks,try again,if the squirrel spooks and stays out of range,try again,if you take aim at your quarry and you see orange beyond it[ SAFETY ON] it works.[HAVE SQUIRT GUN, WILL SQUIRT GAS ON FIRE] BUY THE WAY ,I MUST BE ONE OF THE FEW

-- Edited by manny on Friday 10th of August 2012 07:00:24 PM

-- Edited by manny on Friday 10th of August 2012 07:23:58 PM

JR you need to call Dennis for a racing dawg,jump in, the water is fine.OH thats right you already have with that comment about fish and wildlife dept.s

-- Edited by manny on Friday 10th of August 2012 07:32:12 PM

Good points made...Andy, obviously you're in a position of knowing intimate details from the Department's standpoint that the rest of us aren't, but the comment about re-thinking why we hunt is probably not one that should be directed at traditional bowhunters...you're preaching to the choir on that one. I can honestly say that of all the people I've met at the ITBA, the KTBA, Cloverdale, Compton, etc, I have never met one traditional bowhunter that was all about the "kill"...if the kill was the pinnacle of the "hunt", no one would use a longbow or recurve. As traditional hunters, we choose to use weapons that provide more challenges and sometimes even a disadvantage. And, on Todd's point about seeing more deer, I know where he is coming from...The good old days of high numbers of deer are behind us in Southern Indiana. The mid-80's to the mid-90's were a boom...and I honestly believe it's because the Ag lobby and the Insurance lobby have a much louder voice at the State House than anything to do with fish and wildlife. I get that the farmers have money at stake and I get why some don't allow access, but just because someone had a bad experience with some slob hunter years ago doesn't make it right to paint us all with a broad brush and then bitch about the high number of deer eating their beans and corn...

Me and everyone else that have posted on this thread are only speaking from our personal experiences and what we've seen or heard in the field. And yes, I have a lot of friends in the DNR, many with the same job as you that share my opinion on the state's deer management. I've had CO's tell me that if some in Indy had their way, deer season would be wide open with hardly if any restrictions. So much of it is total crap, you can plant a 2 acre food plot, but you can't use food attractants or bait...Not that I would, but come on, they are no different and the argument about EHD and concentrating deer in an area doesn't hold water. The local deer herds are already concentrated and come in close contact with each other daily...I know this sounds like a rant, but from our view, there doesn't seem to be a lot of science in the state's deer management today.

 theres not enough corn or beans left for deer to damage in most areas

"Insurance companys and farmers lose millions annually off high deer densities, you would bitch too if its coming out of you're pocket"

It IS coming out of our pockets. Insurance rates are based on profit/loss.

another thought: Why does a hunter pay $30 for a tag, but depredation tags are free? If the farmer/landowner is covered by insurance, why doesn't he have to pay just like the rest of us? Legalized poaching?

THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IS FLAWED

Well reasoned, and well said Andy. I was trying to point out to Randy, that North of the crick is different. These farms were paid for years ago, and the going price for an acre is $4000. If you inherit 500 acres, that's pretty easy math.

-- Edited by john nail on Sunday 12th of August 2012 09:44:32 AM