you didn't enter, Dennis?

I asked on tradgang how they were doing the scoring and the different classes. IT IS/WAS nothing short of a joke in my opinon. Basically anything goes was what was said. Shooters could shoot 3 under,string walk, face walk, gap,or instinctive everything was legal. Personally I thought that wasa a joke and made up my mind right there and then to not attend and will not until they recognize that all aiming methods aren't equal. Even FRED BEAR said the same thing in his movies, I have it on dvd and I completely agree with Mr. Bear

I've discussed it with folks but to be honest, they didn't convince me. In my opinon anytime a shooter consiously uses anything as a sight, they should be placed into a separate class, because in a nutshell they are shooting sights in my opinon. A 3 under shooter that anchors under his eye and consiously puts the tip of the arrow on the target is no different than the shooter that attaches sights to his bow in my opinon and as an instintive shooter I can't compete with that method as an instinctive shooter has to concentrate on picking a spot on the target, much like throwing a football or baseball.

Randy,
that didn't even make sense. Instinctive you "FOCUS" on the target, 3 under point of aim you focus on the arrow tip. Yes you gap with point of aim but it's different than gaping. I don't know how long you have been shooting but used to be when you went to a shoot they had a sign that said no 3 under, no string walking, no face walking
Personally I believe point of aim is the compound mentality edging back into trad bow hunting. after all how can you hit what you don't aim at? is their thinking, my answer is you pick a spot on the target and NO I don't see my arrow
So since you let point of aim shooting at the ktba range then should be no hassels if I show up with sights on my bow?? Aiming is Aiming correct?

Hell , they can put scopes or red dots on them for all I care. I don't plan on shooting with 'em. I'm a big proponent of "their club, their rules" Don't like the rules, stay home. No skin off my nose.

NightHawk wrote:

---

Randy,
that didn't even make sense. Instinctive you "FOCUS" on the target, 3 under point of aim you focus on the arrow tip. Yes you gap with point of aim but it's different than gaping. I don't know how long you have been shooting but used to be when you went to a shoot they had a sign that said no 3 under, no string walking, no face walking
Personally I believe point of aim is the compound mentality edging back into trad bow hunting. after all how can you hit what you don't aim at? is their thinking, my answer is you pick a spot on the target and NO I don't see my arrow
So since you let point of aim shooting at the ktba range then should be no hassels if I show up with sights on my bow?? Aiming is Aiming correct?

Dude, there is no way, I mean NO WAY you can shoot without seeing that arrow, unless you shoot from the hip, or close you're eyes. And you would still see it shooting from the hip.
 Yes, maybe we that shooot instinctive see it only as a blur, but subconscitiously, you see it.
 You will find that very few of the shooters at KTBA shoot 3 under, most of them are from ITBA, and what few we do have usually wind up winning. Jesse Arnold has been mopping the floor with everybody lately, he's an excellent shot, (I have seen him shoot) He shoots three under, and holds ,briefly. I have considered giving his method a try, If I thought it would make me shoot like him, I'd definately convert, but I guess i'm too old a dog to learn new tricks.
 The only disadvantage I see to three under, well, It just looks uncomfortable to me. Looks like everything is out of line, and it would be an additional strain. I think it would reduce poundage you are able to pull.
 I shoot split finger, middle finger to the corner of my mouth, which puts my arms,shoulders, and arrow inline, enableing me to almost get "inside" the bow, and handle the poundage easier.
 Plus it just looks more natural, and I feel points quicker for say, moving targets.
 My bottom line, as long as they are shooting "bare bow" , no sights,stabilizer, or release aid, they are in the same class. They have no mechanical advantage. Their style is their advantage, everyone can change to suit if it bothers them.
 Again, without getting inside someones brain, you don't know what they see when they are shooting.

---

 

Randy you dont have to get in Their brain watch where they are drawing to if they a pulling staight to the eye they are Gunbarrling jus like shooting a shotgun aiming quickly like shooting trap but aiming Now Dennis and I are just There for the Parteee but INSTINCTIVE-is shooting is in distinces of feel not distinces of yards unless u disagree wth Fred Bear This is true ok to do this dont care how many fangers or feet you use the anchor is to
The corner of the mouth and take years and alota dailey practice to achive and maintain ablity instinctive shooters will lose at every 3d or tournament because they cant hold up that long like baseball pitcher has to be taken out he thows by instinct GUNBARRLING shooters are deadly at 15 to 30 yrds mostly and are gap shooting picking a spot hi or low to hit the spot GAP and can hold up all day using this system and win Fact watch who wins constenly at the shoots watch them shoot but I DONT CARE its like Traditional or compunds i Make that choice I choose intinctive thats my choice u make youres I show up to shoots because i LOVE to shoot I like the people i shoot with not too beat Billy or Ron or Dale but to be in the shoot and of the wisdom of Dennis and Mr Cowles Thanx lets all git along J.R.

IF you have vision you have sight therfore you are sighting when shooting

Think I'll stick with FRED BEAR on this one as he seems to be more of an authority and more knowlegable than anyone else that has posted. The difference is on the "FOCUS" what are you focusing on? Instinctive shooters FOCUS on the TARGET, Point of aim shooters FOCUS on the arrow tip.
Like I said there is nothing wrong with that style of shooting but it doesn't belong in the same class as an instinctive shooter. FRED BEAR said the same thing back in the late 60s early 70s. Like I told Billy I could come into the shoots and use a 30 pound bow with soda straw arrows and win every shoot using point of aim. It is that effective on the target course, same as if I put sights on my bow.
I did notice that NOONE refferenced that part of the discussion.

QUESTION 1: What is the difference between using a sighting aid and using sights?

Question 2: If I use a bow that has recurved limb tips, no pulleys string touches the limbs am I shooting a traditional bow??

Well most shoots seperate classes by equipment, not style. If you want to divide again by style, then there is going to be a lot of classes. A small club like ours gets together to shoot, and have fun. If we had that many classes, there would be about 2 in each class.Fact is most of our shooters shoot for fun, many (me included)don't even score. We do well to get enough help to set and pull target, we certainly don't have enough to police the shooters. If someone wants to cheat to win a class, i'll just say our club would be the easiest, strictly honor system. Bottom line, if someone does cheat and win it, their only punishment would be their conscience.
 This is the main reason I don't like competition shoots, sooner or later, someone gets mad, and starts a pissing match over cheaters, bow types,(a favorite being the DAAS style bows) arrow types, (a favorite being carbon) and even shooting styles.
 We could keep dividing until theres no 3-D gatherings left, that would be alot of fun wouldn't it?
 Yes, I realize most of the winners shoot 3 under, gunbarreling, gap, whatever. If its terribly important to anyone to beat them, by all means, change you're style, and lay it on 'em. I understand some of these guys are very successfull hunting with their bows too, so it must work for hunting as well.
 We had a member that used to show up with a 30# draw target style recurve, he shot his bow vertically, held his draw while aiming (gap I suppose) and regularly kicked everybodies butt. He didn't hunt, just target shooting. His favorite was the american round, with 60 yard shots, which will quickly seperate the men from the boys. Nothing shows bad form quicker than long distance repetitive shooting.He has been absent for about 2 years, and I worry his health may be why, he had heart problems in the past. I'd love to see him back, and would love to see him soundly whip me on the course.
 As far as Fred Bear, I've read just about everything you can dig up about him, and all his hunting buddies. They are to be admired, and I tend to worship him like many, but he was just a man, and made mistakes too i'm sure. He revolutionized bowmaking with fiberglass, and mass production methods, He made fiberglass arrows, sights,bowquivers, even COMPOUNDS ! I can also dig up photos of Bear back in the 30's or 40's shooting tournament style archery, vertical bow, anchored below his chinn, kissing the string, and possibly using a sight, or at the very least Gapping (gasp). He did it too, he just prefferred instinctive for hunting. The old archers also took some long shots, considered unethical in this day and time, what do you wanta bet they gapped, or point of aimed on those 80 yard shots?
 Live and let live. I have accepted the fact i'm a crappy shot, ain't never gonna win a tournament,and ain't changing my style now. My solution is to just hunt harder, and closer, and so far its kept venison in the freezer every year, for the last 15 years, without the aid of a firearm. I'm pretty proud of that.
 Guys have fun, and peace brothers !

And he took a compond on one hunt in alaska said he couldnt shoot it instictive when the thing broke over he lost all feel for it anyway he put asight on it to finish the hunt and never tried one again Fred Bear interview-- via- J.R.

Randy I'm glad to see I'm not the only person your argue with. I have enjoyed this, I tend to be on the side Randy is presenting. Instinctive as defined in "Traditional Archery" covers a lot of ground.

Just to stir the pot a little more, what is being left out of this is skill, practice, effort, desire, etc., is the most important part needed.  I have shot over most of the South and have seen many split-finger "Instinctive" archers who can shoot with anyone. Gap or point of aim may have some advantages but.... not to the point where they need a class by themselves.

As far as 30lb bows and straw arrows, bring them on. At the distances we shoot, with the preformance of todays bows my 50lb longbow drops about 1inch at 25 yards. Where the advantage?

It will always (hunting or target) be about practice, technique and desire. I believe that the often quoted Freb Bear, Howard Hill, Bryon Furgeson had plenty of this.

Fun post. I've seen it many times on other sites but not ours.

Steve

Bring your 30lb. bow and soda straws.We have two shoots left for you to win.Focus or not that will be a tough two shoots to win.You have to out shoot Steve,Ron,Ron,John,Tim,Larry,Tom,BOB and the list of our top shooters goes on and on.GOOD LUCK.

Dennis bet  you started all this on purpose to introduce youre "Dont Ask Dont Tell " policy into Action in the IBO and Archery in general -   That jus  aint right     -   Im Jus Sayin

forgot to list the only true instinctive shooters i personally have shot with ,quick shot Todd and snap shot T. lots of competion to choose from Hawk. set the date and time and i will jion in the fun,no fear here.